Curse

Arkantos · Jul 21, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Arky, I'm not suggesting this on the basis that Dervish Avatars should be buffed for the sole purpose of Random Arenas. They're fine for PvE because of Eternal Aura, but they don't see any play in any competitive format. I'm not suggesting that every skill that is worthless or otherwise ignored gets a buff, the difference here is that most other professions have hundreds more skills, dozens more elites, and the Dervish lacks the utility needed to perform well with its current skill set. Furthermore, the Avatars are tied closely to the profession, more-so than most elites. It isn't just a matter of tying skills to the primary attribute for balance, the Avatars embody the Dervish profession.

Dervishes don't have knockdowns, so they instantly cannot compete with Warriors for their traditional utility roles. The only thing that Dervishes can do is a lot of damage on spikes, and that is only aided by three elite skills. Assassins spike better and have unblockable attack chains as well as moreutility. The profession as a whole needs major adjustments, as do all of the non-core professions, but changing the Avatars to be made useful for PvP is a step in the right direction. Even if the activation time is not instant, changing it to prevent it from being able to be interrupted, or giving it an increased aftercast would also work, although not as well imo.

They're not used in competitive play because they were overpowered and then nerfed. If you want them buffed, this isn't the way to go. The dervish (along with all the other added professions) were all pretty poorly created, which is why most of their builds that were used in competitive PvP were nerfed.

If you want dervishes useful in PvP again, you have to change quite a bit more than the avatars. If Izzy did this, there would be a chance (pretty high one at that) that the dervish would once again be overpowered.

So yes, changing the avatars may be a step in the right direction, but this specific buff isn't. They aren't used in competitive PvP not because the avatars are easily interrupted, but because dervishes as a class lack the frontlining abilities of a warrior.

Avarre · Jul 21, 2009, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Dervish Avatars cannot be removed once cast.

THAT MEANS THE CASTING TIME IS THEIR ONLY POINT OF DISRUPTION AND POSSIBLE COUNTERING

Why would you suggest removing that EVER.

Ariena Najea · Jul 21, 2009, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

They're not used in competitive play because they were overpowered and then nerfed. If you want them buffed, this isn't the way to go. The dervish (along with all the other added professions) were all pretty poorly created, which is why most of their builds that were used in competitive PvP were nerfed.

If you want dervishes useful in PvP again, you have to change quite a bit more than the avatars. If Izzy did this, there would be a chance (pretty high one at that) that the dervish would once again be overpowered.

So yes, changing the avatars may be a step in the right direction, but this specific buff isn't. They aren't used in competitive PvP not because the avatars are easily interrupted, but because [/b]dervishes as a class lack the frontlining abilities of a warrior.[/b]

I could be mistaken, but I'm sure that the Avatars were changed because they were too powerful during Victory or Death in GvG matches. Now that this mechanic is no longer in the game, it doesn't make sense for these skills to remain useless.

I recognize that there are many problems with the Dervish, but many of them are unlikely to be changed since they are basic Dervish mechanics, such as scythes hitting adjacent foes.

The last bold is exactly my point, Dervishes should not be made to be near identical to Warriors. Their inability to knock foes down, their reduced armor, and other differences should be balanced by the Dervish's utility. The Avatars increase the utility of the profession, which is why these skills need be adjusted to function better for competitive play. Dervishes can also do much more than wield a scythe, for example, I saw a D/Mo in Heroes' Ascent that abused Mysticism to be able to spam Reversal of Fortune, Aura of Stability on recharge, and other prots while having protection from Conviction and Fleeting Stability. I'm still intrigued at the idea of using Avatar of Balthazar for a flag runner. There are certainly better offensive skills to bring for a Dervish meant to make big numbers, but AoB grants additional armor and a movement speed buff that make it well suited to flag running. A D/Mo with Holy Veil and other skills would fit well into this role.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Dervish Avatars cannot be removed once cast.

THAT MEANS THE CASTING TIME IS THEIR ONLY POINT OF DISRUPTION AND POSSIBLE COUNTERING

Why would you suggest removing that EVER.

Something I think you and some of the other posters here are forgetting is that the Avatars serve only to augment the Dervish's capabilities, and enhance rather than causing a direct effect.

Most of the basic counters to physicals still apply in most cases. Sure, you can't Blind or Cripple an AoM, but hexes as well as standard defensive skills still apply. AoG goes right through blocking enchantments, but blind, cripple, weakness, and hexes still work great. AoD removes hexes but not conditions, and placing key hexes such as movement speed debuffs will force the player to waste time on useful skills in order to be able to ditch the hex and catch up to a target. AoL has no defense against conditions or hexes, thus not providing anything more than additional damage. AoB helps defensively with the armor boost, and the movement speed increase is useful, however, the usual melee counters still win. In this case, the IMS provided is not enough to offset the offensive power of Wounding Strike or Reaper's Sweep, so it's nothing to worry about.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jul 21, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

They're not used in competitive play because they were overpowered and then nerfed. If you want them buffed, this isn't the way to go. The dervish (along with all the other added professions) were all pretty poorly created, which is why most of their builds that were used in competitive PvP were nerfed.

If you want dervishes useful in PvP again, you have to change quite a bit more than the avatars. If Izzy did this, there would be a chance (pretty high one at that) that the dervish would once again be overpowered.

So yes, changing the avatars may be a step in the right direction, but this specific buff isn't. They aren't used in competitive PvP not because the avatars are easily interrupted, but because dervishes as a class lack the frontlining abilities of a warrior.

Pretty much. Furthermore Dervishes aren't used much because there is no more NPC farming during VOD, one of the reasons Dervs saw more play back then and it wasn't even about the Avatar itself, yet the high crit dmg AOE attacks, Avatars were just added icing on the cake. You'd still see them in PvP in pressure/condi builds but that's about it, not to mention a majority of frontline players don't even like to play as a dervish, imba or not.

Tenebrae · Jul 21, 2009, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

I could be mistaken, but I'm sure that the Avatars were changed because they were too powerful during Victory or Death in GvG matches. Now that this mechanic is no longer in the game, it doesn't make sense for these skills to remain useless.

Yes you are , interrupting avatars has nothing to do with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Something I think you and some of the other posters here are forgetting is that the Avatars serve only to augment the Dervish's capabilities, and enhance rather than causing a direct effect.

I think you are the one that dont want to see that interrupting that skill has nothing to do with the balance of the skill . You want a buff or you want to make it cast so fast that only a AI can stop that or even no one ?. First case , ok , give it a buff . Second case , NO , that is NOT the solution. Easy

MithranArkanere · Jul 21, 2009, 09:00 PM // 21:00

They are forms, and forms are not spells.
That means that they won't be affected by dazing nor skills that interrupt spells only.

That's enough.